Why EBV Keeps Reactivating in Hashimoto’s with Dr. Kasia Kines

Kasia (00:00.305)

Inna Topiler CNS MS (00:01.41)

Dr. Kasha Kind, welcome back to Thyroid Mystery Solved Hashimoto’s and Hypothyroidism Revealed. We’ve missed you on here.

Kasia (00:04.836)

Hi, Inna.

Kasia (00:09.127)

my gosh, anytime. so glad we get to talk together again. So lovely to be here.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (00:14.718)

You are the EBV person. You are the go-to person with everything relating to EBV and there’s always new research. There’s always new things coming out. And so I’m so excited to have you here and pick your brain about all things EBV and Hashimoto’s. So first, EBV has been an issue for a long time. It’s not new. It’s something that has been around for years and years and years. However, it seems that more and more people are now starting to…

Kasia (00:25.36)

Okay. Okay. Let’s do it.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (00:42.818)

have more symptoms, starting to get more laps, starting to see more more EBV. Why is it so much worse, especially in the last few years?

Kasia (00:53.078)

I’m noticing too. I’m definitely noticing that too. Well, the virus has been here for about 10 million years, so it’s very smart. I think it has to do with two things. One thing is COVID, definitely that changed them up. COVID adds to EBV reactivation and sometimes the first time people have EBV when they develop COVID. Also, I think it’s where our life is going.

Because I think, especially women, are tighter and tighter, compressing lot more responsibilities. And I think our reality is getting more challenging, more taxing. There’s less breathing room. I don’t think it’s better for women. I think it’s getting worse. And so for so many women, they become more compromised just because they’re just so stretched thin. And if he is an opportunist.

We all carry it except it just like what turns it on. It’s like a computer virus. It gets turned on.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (01:55.694)

Yeah. it’s in our bodies, right? We get it usually when we’re very young and then it’s the thing that brings it back out. Now, why COVID? Why has COVID been so bad, so to speak, for EBV?

Kasia (02:08.688)

Yes.

So it’s not just COVID, it’s co-infections in particular. So before COVID, for example, one of the common co-infections in our community has been SIBO or H. pylori. So it’s well documented in medical literature that if you have, let me just put you in the middle more, if you have a co-infection,

If you have an infection that is not related to EBV, it can trigger reactivation of EBV. It’s called trans activation in medical literature. So it’s been it’s been documented, but you know you have COVID has been so big and so, you know, so common. And so it has become a common co infection for EBV. And so when COVID came on the map,

studies started to emerge on connections between COVID and EBV really fast. Wuhan University started immediately connecting those two. So we have those studies from the beginning. And so it’s just, just transactivation, but it’s a very common virus COVID now. So it’s a common cause of transactivation into EBV.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (03:27.756)

Yeah. Now with EBV, once it reactivates, I know that it can cause a lot of different symptoms really across the board. And most people think about it as, yeah, well, maybe I’ll feel like I have a sore throat or maybe I’ll be a little bit tired. And that can be for some people, but it can really go quite broad in terms of symptoms. You know, how bad can people feel with it?

Kasia (03:33.552)

Thanks a lot.

Yeah.

Kasia (03:47.408)

Yeah. Yeah. So the common the common phrase that I hear is I feel like I’ve been hit by a Mack truck and people just push through. That’s another thing that they say to function. It’s pushing through. Another comment that I often get is, you know, you have energy like you have an energy bag for the day. And for a person with chronic activated, you drag yourself out of your bed.

to the kitchen and then back to your bed and your energy bank for the day is now depleted. This is how little energy you have and so hard. Sometimes people say my arms and legs feel like they were a ton. I can’t even pick them. I can’t even brush my teeth. It’s just so hard. It’s like overwhelming, laden fatigue that is bearing down like gravity is heavier. Does it make sense?

Inna Topiler CNS MS (04:43.278)

It does. And I think this is really good for everyone listening to understand because as with everything else, there’s a spectrum, right? And not everyone with a reactivity is going to feel that way. But at the same time, right, you can feel that bad because I think oftentimes when people feel that way, you know, their minds start to go, okay, do I have a tumor? what is, is there some kind of neurological thing happening? Is there some kind of malignancy, right? Or something else that’s going on? And not to say that,

Kasia (04:51.685)

Yeah.

Kasia (05:04.784)

Yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (05:13.23)

can’t be the case, of course, but it’s really good for people to know that EBV has the spectrum of symptoms that it could be from mild of just a little fatigue to this extreme debilitating type of fatigue that you are describing.

Kasia (05:14.67)

in the room.

Kasia (05:25.85)

Yeah, it could. You’re right.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (05:29.482)

Yeah. And I think that’s just important to know. Now, what about diagnosis with it? Because there’s a lot of labs and there’s a lot of confusion as well when it comes to what labs do you run? How do you know? Because there’s, if this is positive and this is negative, then it means this or that. So can you give us a little bit of like a Cliffs Notes on the labs and how people would know and what they can ask their doctor because

Kasia (05:51.258)

now.

Kasia (05:55.065)

I’m not.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (05:58.796)

You ask your doctor for EBV and you know, who knows what you’re going to get. you just say, just me for EBV, you’ll get literally everything under the sun.

Kasia (06:02.607)

Exactly.

If our listeners don’t have a good doctor that is open-minded and will listen and will actually order the right antibodies, then I would just go to a direct-to-consumer lab and do it on your own and find those antibodies. Because sometimes even you need four antibodies, but the lab panels typically don’t include all four. They include only three. And then early antigen is the one not included typically, the big labs. Any of the physicians?

Inna Topiler CNS MS (06:31.363)

Yes.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (06:37.368)

Yeah. Can you just tell us what the labs are just so that everyone’s on the same page? Cause not everyone may be familiar with them.

Kasia (06:39.458)

Okay.

Kasia (06:43.599)

Okay, so let me finish that and then I’ll tell the labs, but it’s just a big picture. That fourth one, early antigen is most important because that is how a doctor should be able to diagnose what’s happening. Without it, you can’t really tell, but they don’t know that. So even if the doctor’s willing and ordered this one in addition to the panel in the pre-acquisition form,

requisition form, Sometimes the lab still doesn’t honor it and this is missing. So then you really don’t know. So you need four. But if you go to a consumer direct lab, you can pick what you want. You know, you just have to pay for it. so it’s early antigen IgG. There’s three IgGs and one IgM. So early antigen is IgG. It’s called EA, early antigen. Then you have VCA IgM and VCA IgG.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (07:30.222)

Mm-hmm.

Kasia (07:38.017)

has both IgM and IgG. And then you have EBNA IgG. So you have three IgGs and one IgM.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (07:46.102)

Okay. And what about other IgM’s? For example, early entogen can also be an IgM and an IgG, which is more important.

Kasia (07:56.846)

I have not seen early antigen IgM available. I have seen EBNA IgM available, but there’s only one lab that I’ve seen that provides that. So it’s a little tricky.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (08:00.748)

Okay, I think.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (08:09.984)

Okay. I have someone in Dubai and they do it there, but perhaps maybe they don’t do it in the US.

Kasia (08:17.551)

That’s interesting though. Yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (08:21.878)

So what does it mean then if you have IgG versus IgM and the early entogen? Can you give us some cliff notes on that?

Kasia (08:27.663)

Yeah, so in traditional medical training and you know, pathogens, if you have IgG, typically the education in medical school is that it’s past infection and IgM is current infection and that would be perfectly fine except when I started to read medical literature, it wasn’t so straightforward. That’s where the confusion comes in. So

Inna Topiler CNS MS (08:54.414)

Tell us more.

Kasia (08:55.917)

There’s one IgM, right? So let’s start with that. VCA IgM is the one IgM. And yes, if you have initial mono, like infectious mononucleosis, like right now, right here, first time in your life, never before, that’s what medical literature says is yes, it’s gonna pick up and show positive. If it’s reactivation, you’ve had it, you had mono in high school and you had, you know, semi-BV in college.

that our VCA-IGM will probably never show up positive when you reactivate. So this is the biggest issue for physicians because they have no idea unless they read medical literature and look at the medical literature and the graphs that they present. I don’t know why it is, but that’s what it is. So if you have chronic EBV and keeps reactivating and going up and down, you have lupus, Hashimoto’s, you have…

Inna Topiler CNS MS (09:37.454)

Hmm

Kasia (09:54.296)

you have chronic fatigue, have all the clusters of symptoms, then it’s expected to see this normal. So I would say 99 % of people that come through my door and ask for help or join our program have normal BCIGM. So they would totally be misdiagnosed and that would not be on the radar even.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (10:22.772)

So how would they know that they have chronic EBV and that it’s reactivated if their IgM is negative?

Kasia (10:28.589)

Right, so if you have IgM that is negative, you’re looking at the three other ones. So that early antigen is the one that picks up whenever you lyse. So when you actively reactivate. So when you have chronic EBV, you have virus that is spilling out of the infected cells. That’s the reactivation. You know, the cells lyse.

They burst open and all these young virions are spilling into the blood and then you feel like you’ve been hit by a muck truck. That’s reactivation. during that period early antigen will most likely show up. And doesn’t have to show up much, just positive. Doesn’t have to be triple, quadruple. But it will go back down.

Like if you feel the worst at Thanksgiving but you test in January, early antigen may have normalized by that time. Because you’re out of that lysing phase and now it’s dormant. So it’s hard to test when you feel the worst. But if you really want to know, I would test what you really feel like you’ve been hit by that mactrac. So you can miss that. And then the other two…

RVCA, IgG and EBNA both IgG. So these start coming up, you know, maybe 60 days after the first infection and then they remain elevated for the rest of your life more or less. So they’re never going to go to normal. We’re tagged. This is like memory. So these are memory, but they will fluctuate up and down with early antigen as you reactivate.

The issue with those two is how high are they? So in people that have chronic active EBV, it can be triple digits. So if the normal is 0 to 9 or 0 to 9, 19.999, something like that, and you have 347, that means that EBV has a lot to do with what’s happening in your health. And the worst case scenario is if one of them or both of them are over the run, just even

Kasia (12:52.364)

either more than 600 or more than 750 depending on the lab. Now you don’t know if it’s a thousand, two thousand, three thousand, you have no bearings. So if you ever test again in future and you actually get the real number, let’s say 599, you should celebrate because it means that you actually now know where you are because otherwise you have no bearings, like you have no idea how bad it is. So in that case, even if one of those two

Inna Topiler CNS MS (12:56.856)

Mm-hmm.

Kasia (13:21.504)

as triple digits or over the range. Like EBD as the issue.

early antigen can be up and down. So then you have to look at the whole person and cluster of symptoms and conditions and autoimmunity. Look at all of this and see is that me because it can be odd presentations if you’re not sure with the labs.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (13:31.082)

Mm-hmm. So when.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (13:46.222)

And so when you see someone and they’re feeling really tired and maybe they have a completely normal early antigen, what you’re saying is you could have missed that because the early antigen was up and then it came down. But if you’re seeing, even with a normal IgM, if you’re seeing an elevated IgG for VCA or EBNA, and if it’s very high, especially in the three, four, 500 range, then something is definitely happening.

Kasia (14:04.739)

really hot. Yeah.

Kasia (14:10.422)

Yeah, and then I look at the history. They had hepatitis, had juvenile rheumatoid arthritis as a kid. They had terrible depression unexplained when they were in college. You look at all these things that they’ve gone through and then you’re looking at their complaints right now. Chronic fatigue is mostly what presents and brain fog, enormous brain fog. They can’t process information. So you look at that.

trajectory and especially if people have tried everything and they’re still there. They’ve tried, they go to Mayo Clinic for chronic fatigue, they go there, they go to Cleveland Clinic, anywhere just to get some grasp on that leg and fatigue and they still have to deal with it. So you kind of have to look at the whole person and we have all these symptoms and clusters on our website, like we have all the resources so people can start.

processing information and thinking is that my life? Have I been going through all these things? Because you know when people start telling you about their past there’s so many points of reactivation in their past but they didn’t realize where they’d be.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (15:23.778)

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Now back to early antigen for a second. One of the things that I have been seeing a lot because I test almost everyone for that because there’s such a connection between EBV and Hoshi models. We’ll talk about that in a second, but I always look at early antigen and the other ones and I’ve been finding much higher older antigens recently, people than before, because I used to test early antigens in the past and hardly anyone had reactivation. But in the last four or five years, so many people do. But what’s interesting

Kasia (15:24.898)

Yeah.

Kasia (15:43.426)

Vito! Vito!

Inna Topiler CNS MS (15:53.486)

is I’m finding that the early antigen isn’t coming down even with support. And I’m curious if you’re seeing that as well. Like, and the engines aren’t so high. Let’s say, you know, I have someone with like a 15 or 16, and then we’ll have levels 22, 23. So they’re not, you know, triple, quadruple, but they’re still elevated. They’re more than that nine. And then, you know, we’ll do different protocols, different antivirals, different support, and they feel better.

Kasia (16:01.665)

Interesting.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (16:23.148)

But the early antigen is still at, you know, maybe goes down by one and then maybe in three months later it goes up by two and then down by two and then up by three. So I’m curious your thoughts on that.

Kasia (16:36.366)

This is interesting because I see one more pattern with early antigen, which I had never seen before COVID. I see early antigen elevated beyond the numbers. So more than 150 typically is like more than 150. Triple, I see double digits, it’s normal, but triple digits I’ve been seeing and then more than 150. So beyond even a recognizable number. I had never seen that ever.

for COVID. I don’t know if it’s related to where we’re shifting. I don’t know what it is, but that is and these people are really sick. So when you have early antigen and people respond to a degree and then they stop stall, you have to look at the hood and see what are other factors outside of EBV. So if you have a good protocol for EBV and you know it works, then if you stumble midway,

then there’s something else that continues triggering EBV. Often times it’s mold. I can tell you Wi-Fi is much more aggressive right now. The routers, the Wi-Fi routers are very strong. Smart meters, people don’t know if they have it but they are pretty much on all homes. It’s getting worse.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (17:46.658)

Mm-hmm.

Kasia (17:55.022)

And so even those two factors and mold is really so prevalent the way we build homes. It’s just a waiting game. But I think the Wi-Fi maybe, I had a student who had a smart meter inside the kitchen.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (18:11.606)

wow.

Kasia (18:14.525)

right there inches away where she was cooking making tea all that every day repeatedly you know and so these things well yeah you will you won’t move forward and then and then and then

Inna Topiler CNS MS (18:28.258)

And that’s so interesting about the wifi because I don’t think people think about it that way. You know, we think, okay, I have a viral issue, so I need to take more antivirals. Maybe I’m not taking enough antivirals. Maybe I’m stressed, right? I mean, these are the things that people do think about. And we obviously know wifi can have such an effect on the body. We kind of talk about it more for people with like really chronic illness or children, but I don’t think people really connect the dots that tell us a little bit more. Like how does wifi influence viruses?

Kasia (18:34.559)

No.

Kasia (18:49.933)

children. No.

Kasia (18:58.453)

It’s everyone is exposed. Everyone is exposed. And so how much can the body tolerate that constant Wi-Fi? So when I was writing the book, Dr. Pizorno told me, know, the book is good, but don’t include the chapter on Wi-Fi because we don’t have enough information, not enough studies, and you’re going to be criticized for it. And I understand. I left it in the book because of what I was seeing.

and I’m seeing it even worse now. The problem also is when you have combination of Wi-Fi at the intensity we have along with mode. If you have water damage that is undetected and you have smart meter and you have a Wi-Fi router and Alexa and you know all these gadgets running. You’re creating a perfect storm. You won’t be able to turn down

EBV much. It’s just going to keep reactivating. And so just like with mold, the mold will produce, will be more aggressive producing mycotoxins when exposed to Wi-Fi. We have some studies on that and we don’t know if it’s just irritated, if it’s just growing and soaking it up and thriving on it or if it’s protecting itself. So I don’t know about EBV either.

But I know that the triggering events for EBV are Wi-Fi and mold. Big. And there’s so many people that I have that are in denial. They don’t know that they have mold exposure. And it takes a while to figure out where it is that it’s there. And so something like having Ethernet, having a wired Internet.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (20:31.79)

interesting.

Kasia (20:54.655)

or having fiber optic is more and more available sometimes, still expensive. These are good options. This is for people, yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (21:04.376)

Yeah, I think.

Yeah. And that makes sense. And I think for people who are very sensitive that are more, you know, have more of this chronic elevation and that are feeling worse, these are definitely things to consider. I know we try to turn our wifi off at night, at least. know a lot of people do that. You know, there’s ways to have it done automatically. There’s ways where you literally just shut it off and you know, it’s not 24 hours, but Hey, you know, if it’s for nine hours, that’s still better than nothing. That’s how I look at it.

Kasia (21:15.99)

love it.

Kasia (21:27.755)

Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Kasia (21:37.195)

Yeah, and the night is when your brain repairs. So you really, yeah. another thing I’ve noticed in the last 12 months, more people than not are using right now, are using the phone as alarm clock. It’s absolutely unacceptable. Turn off your phone, get it out of your bedroom and use an analog little like battery run, traditional.

alarm clock with hands without digital numbers flaring at you.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (22:10.284)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, at least you could put it on airplane. The alarm clock will still work if your phone’s on airplane mode. So that’s another thing that people can do. You know, if you want to use it, use it, but turn it on airplane mode. I’m always telling people airplane mode, like you can’t, know, cause some people are like, don’t want to get the phone out of my bedroom. Fine. Then put it on airplane mode.

Kasia (22:17.517)

Okay, that’s fair.

Kasia (22:32.641)

This is interesting though. It tells you how addicted people are to having the phone and actually the act of letting it go out of the bedroom, letting it go, not being attached to it is really healthy. Like I don’t have my phone here. It’s charging way, way there. I don’t have to walk with it. I don’t have to have it in my pocket. I never do. It’s like you don’t carry it on on your body. It’s a hygiene. We’re not taught because nobody’s talking about, but it does have repercussions. So

I think that hygiene is really like necessary. We need to be re-educated.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (23:08.842)

And these are all really important. think for people who especially have autoimmunity and Hashimoto’s, EBV is such a big trigger. Tell us a little bit more about that. Why is EBV a trigger and how is it connected to Hashimoto’s specifically in thyroid issues?

Kasia (23:15.276)

Yeah.

Kasia (23:18.978)

Yeah.

Kasia (23:25.773)

I want to say one more story just from yesterday before we move to Hashimoto’s because this is like the environmental triggers So mold is environmental I would say but there are environmental triggers Toxin the environmental toxins that will turn and be you on and so yesterday on a call I have one of my students and saying you know two weeks ago. You told me You’re on the protocol. You should be thriving. You’re not thriving. There’s something else going on. What is it?

And you know what she found out? She found out that the community of homes where she lives was built in front of a radioactive dump.

And then some other people possibly are sick. Her dog has two autoimmune disorders. Her daughter developed an autoimmune disorder. She developed autoimmune disorder. Like it’s coming from somewhere. So that’s a new avenue to pursue. So I’m just saying that. And I was living for half a year when I sold my house in an apartment complex. was one building for six apartments. And guess what? Seven smart meters.

You know what I did? So I tried to talk to the management, but I could tell that that was a known, that was a long go. And it was the smart meter was on the back. Nobody walked there. It was the end of the property. I bought seven smart meter guards. Put that one. You know, you got to do certain things and you don’t want to live on the wall inside the building where the wall has all those 20 smart meters for the whole.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (24:40.27)

Mm.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (24:54.702)

Hmm.

Kasia (25:08.3)

building for apartments. That’s a little risky, I just wanted to mention that. Okay, let’s talk about salary.

So the thyroid, the autoimmunity, so when we look at studies, statistically, 90-95 % of low thyroid is actually autoimmune thyroid, you know, preaching to the choir. So then we think, so why is that autoimmunity so high? Why do we have epidemic of low thyroid? We have epidemic of autoimmunity in thyroid, if you look at it this way, all the way into thyroid cancer.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (25:30.467)

Yes.

Kasia (25:46.369)

right goes all the way there so there’s different triggering events and one of them are infections and I would say infections are number one I would say if you agree and then of the infections that can cause autoimmune gene thyroid I would say number one really like number one leading would be EBV the second would be H. biori and sometimes people have cluster of both sometimes you have a

Inna Topiler CNS MS (25:46.882)

Yes.

Kasia (26:15.108)

H. pylori, EBV, Hashimoto’s, sometimes sebum also. It’s fun, right? Having all these conditions is horrible. So basically EBV travels and depends on the person and age and how it progresses, goes to the liver, spleen, thyroid. And so the body does what it does, it sends immune cells, as you know.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (26:20.898)

Yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (26:25.07)

Mmm.

Kasia (26:42.454)

to the organs that are infected and tries to target the organ and kill the BB, turn it off. The collateral damages and it has to hit the thyroid tissue. And so the longer it goes on, the less thyroid, functioning thyroid you have. Eventually it’s gone, you have to rely on medication. But the situation that I see is, as you know, women are not medicated, but it’s like…

You know, you’re mopping the floor, the water keeps spilling, you have to turn off the faucet, which is the infection. The T3, T4, they’re just not turning off that infection. They’re just providing T3, T4, so you have to rely on it. But the longer it goes on, the more tissue you lose, so the more you have to rely on medication, because the thyroid can make less and less of the hormone, if it makes sense, right? Yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (27:23.894)

Bye.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (27:37.644)

Yeah. Yeah, of course. Absolutely. Because yeah, it’s really, you know, Hashimoto’s is not a thyroid problem. It’s an immune problem. And you know, it’s why is the immune system attacking? And with cases like EBV, that makes sense what you’re saying, because if EBV is going to travel to an organ and, you know, land on the thyroid, obviously your body’s so smart, it’s going to say, well, hey, let’s go after to get rid of the virus and…

Kasia (27:42.047)

I know.

Kasia (27:52.725)

Yeah.

Kasia (28:00.001)

Yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (28:03.842)

The virus is on the thyroid, so it’s attacking the thyroid. And in time, very similarly to how gluten and thyroid are connected through cross-reactivity.

Kasia (28:05.75)

Yeah, it could be this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you have lymph nodes that are often engaged. That’s very close. on the, and sometimes, you know, the entry is saliva typically, larynx, pharynx, that area is very close. But on a more personal spiritual level, thyroid is where our throat chakra is, which is our voice speaking who we are. And how many women do I know that in their lives,

Inna Topiler CNS MS (28:30.381)

Yes.

Kasia (28:37.856)

that is so complicated that they just lost the ability to really live their lives the way they want. have all these responsibilities. They can’t really speak sometimes in their relationships and you know they have to take care of their parents aging and the kids are growing and we don’t have tribal support so they have to be a driver and a sex partner and a maid and a cook and caregiver for the parents and everything in one person.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (28:46.349)

Yes.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (29:05.442)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kasia (29:06.892)

And it’s getting, I feel it’s getting worse these days, Holabin. Which brings me back to what we were talking at the beginning. And thyroid is a very vulnerable, thyroid is like a velcro for toxins as well. So even being on a plane, it’s just gonna suck in radiation. So I think protecting thyroid is protecting our voice.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (29:10.476)

Yeah, yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (29:33.24)

Mm-hmm.

Kasia (29:33.428)

and remembering to remember who you are and I think that’s another layer. Why is thyroid such a big issue now? Why thyroid? Why not spleen? So I say spleen is more common in kids. You can have liver autoimmunity, hepatitis, related to… You can have all kinds of things. Why is this particular organ so common in women now? What’s going on, right?

Inna Topiler CNS MS (30:02.798)

Yeah

Kasia (30:02.86)

It can go anywhere. Why? Why there? Yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (30:07.022)

Absolutely. And I talk about this a lot as well. It’s our voice. It’s our ability to express. It’s, you know, when we say yes, even though we really mean no, when we people please, when we are afraid of rejection. I mean, all the things that I think is common for people, but women especially, and that really affects the thyroid so much. So I love that you’re bringing that up and that’s so important. Now, how would one know, or is there really a way to know

Kasia (30:13.001)

Yeah!

No, exactly.

Kasia (30:30.633)

Yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (30:36.702)

where EBV travels or is it just based on the damage to the organ itself?

Kasia (30:43.659)

say yeah it depends on presentation so somebody will come and say you know I don’t I don’t have the fatigue I’m not like I’m not living on my sofa like everybody else I’m but you have Hashimoto’s but you have lupus why do you have those so

What was the question?

Inna Topiler CNS MS (31:08.846)

Well, the question was that, you know, because EBV can travel to different organs, right? For some people it goes to the liver, some people go to the thyroid. Is there a way to know?

Kasia (31:13.513)

How do you know?

Kasia (31:18.001)

it just shows so I do have a shortcut that I created it’s four pages it’s an EBV quiz and each page has a cluster of different things so there’s a cluster with types of cancer there’s a cluster with types of autoimmunity there’s a cluster of symptoms common symptoms and very uncommon symptoms and I think if you just work through that document and check all boxes

you can kind of anticipate where it is in your body. Mostly, like if it doesn’t go into a specific organ, it just floods the bloodstream and the bloodstream goes everywhere. So you’re to have toxic levels of the debris from EBV in the brain. That’s the brain fog, malaise, you know, all over and then muscular pain, any myalgia, because it’s just oxidative stress traveling everywhere. So it could be like, you know.

systemic but then if you have you know if you have elevated done type bodies in liver, thyroid, connective tissue it starts like you know rheumatoid arthritis is classic as well so diabetes type 1 is classic celiac can be triggered by DD if have the genes so

So it really depends if you can tap into the document and look at those clusters and see, you can then anticipate where it’s going. And if we don’t turn it down, it keeps going. So one year is this and next year is that.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (32:56.088)

Right. And I think that’s so important. What you’re saying is that we normally expect the body to fight, right? Just like when we have a cold or we cut our finger, right? We expect the body’s going to heal the cut. expect cold to get better. And typically in seven days, if you have a cold, it will get better. But EBV is a little different because of what you were explaining that we have so many other triggers and there are so many things happening that when it’s chronic, the body actually doesn’t have a very good ability to completely turn it off. So.

Kasia (33:02.687)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kasia (33:09.471)

Yeah.

Kasia (33:18.761)

Yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (33:24.792)

We want to help that or the body, course, always has the ability to heal, but it’s how much of that ability is able to be accessed because of the modern world and stress and everything else that we live with. how can people, what can they do to start to help their immune system to deactivate it? I know there’s lifestyle things, there are nutrient things. You if someone is just starting out, what would you tell them?

Kasia (33:35.155)

Yeah.

Kasia (33:42.347)

Thank you.

Kasia (33:47.936)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, externally, look at how you’re living. Stop using pesticides if you have a yard. Get a water filter because there’s so many chemicals you’re going to drink otherwise. Possibly get an air filter. We have so many wildfires right now. It’s becoming part of the season.

where I live so an air filter that can handle smoke is essential because smoke contains dioxins and they will reactivate it just by itself if you’re healthy so you know fire pits sitting away from the wind if you have wood burning fireplace at home be cognizant is it making you feel worse you know in a smart meter just being aware of the toxic load

The low-hanging fruit for me is Wi-Fi, turning it down. It’s very simple, inexpensive. You can get kill switch to turn it off for the night, like you mentioned. You can go to ethernet if that’s possible. There’s lots of good tools out and products. I had to educate myself too. So, you know, if you can turn down the volume of these insults…

Then the next level would be the kitchen. So antioxidants are enormous because it creates oxidative stress. So antioxidants is something that we make, but most of it we have to eat. And antioxidants are in plants. Lots of antioxidants are in fruits. So like load up on plant-based whole foods as much as possible. Not to the exclusion of animal protein. That’s not what it is.

except animal protein has no fiber which builds your immune cells and no antioxidants that we really need so we really need to amend that with lots of plant matter and that also produces stool and the fiber will scrape off this oxidative stress the toxins from EBV put it in stool and you will excrete it and you will poop it out so

Kasia (36:11.401)

this kind of roughage, having the roughage to clean and get the gunk out and then honoring who you are. I remember there was a practitioner who did all kinds of therapies, amazing therapies, I haven’t even heard of some of them and the EBV was not budging but she was in a very extremely toxic environment in her marriage with kids.

And so literally we had a conversation. At a point I had to say, here’s what we do. Grab bags, pack everything. When he’s not there, grab your kids, them in the car, drive away, and then go to court file, know, blah, blah, blah. This woman did. The moment she did it, ABD started to turn down.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (37:04.269)

Hmm.

Kasia (37:07.561)

But she was doing everything for years before me and then with us, you know, like you said, what happens when it doesn’t budge to a certain point? It improves and then you stop. She was like the life was not congruent. She was living in pain and fear, in stress, and it was oozing. You know, it was there.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (37:30.54)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kasia (37:32.533)

She changed her life and she changed her body. That was very courageous, very courageous. Very difficult.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (37:36.202)

Yeah. And that’s such a huge one for so many people. Yeah. Right. And that’s, know, for some people that is very, very difficult, but in some situations, right, needs to be done. Yeah. Now, what about supplements? You know, we talked a lot about lifestyle. We talked about the food. We talked about expression and really being yourself, but what about supplements? I know you have some favorites that you use. Obviously it is going to be dependent on the person and it’s not a protocol that is,

Kasia (37:57.961)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (38:03.434)

and don’t be all for everyone, but what are some of your favorites that you like to use in life?

Kasia (38:05.161)

Yeah. Yeah, so you know if you have a clean lifestyle like that, most people will have little reactivations and never know about it. Just not even like a cold or a sliffle. You know, live a… Most of us have it up and down probably and we don’t even know because nobody takes care of it. It’s the people that are chronically ill that don’t have that capacity, right? So…

In case of those people when they already have chronic autoimmunity and chronic active EBD, I can’t move these people to the finish line without having aggressive supplement protocol. Aggressive means enormous amounts of antioxidant value from specific supplements and also like one ingredient, one supplement, very targeted so we can dose it up to the maximum level that I can possibly.

and it’s mostly antioxidants, there’s two amino acids and there’s only one herb. Herbs are not capable of doing the heavy lifting but this one herb licorice can do. So the initial thing that I have to do because people are just not even, you know, the brain fog. They don’t have executive function to follow through. So I have to just teach them to open the mouth in particular.

time bracket together, separate and just follow instructions so we can start stabilizing them and turning off that oxidative damage, turning off the virus. And the longer we get on that protocol, the quieter the virus gets and then we have the opportunity to tackle everything else. And so the two amino acids, lysine and NIC. Yep. Then the licorice, like I said,

Inna Topiler CNS MS (39:55.48)

I love those.

Kasia (40:00.691)

And then the rest are nutrients, which multitask and which are antiviral. that’s selenium, that’s zinc, that’s vitamin D, vitamin C and vitamin E.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (40:17.038)

Hmm, I love this. What about vitamin A? Do you ever use vitamin A?

Kasia (40:17.834)

And that’s it. Vitamin A, do you use vitamin A? I do, so I don’t need to with this one, I don’t need to, but I do reserve it for people that have problems with the gut permeability, they have to get the heal the stomach lining or the intestinal lining. do and sometimes, you know, sometimes if you can’t tolerate this or this, NAC sometimes is not tolerated or selenium is not tolerated, then I’ll bring vitamin A. Vitamin A, yes, it’s huge, antiviral if you get the right.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (40:45.517)

Yeah.

Kasia (40:47.816)

the right form of it.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (40:49.454)

Right, right. Yeah. Now, what about the duration of time? Because some people take it for a few days, they feel better and they’re like, okay, don’t need it anymore. But it typically needs to be longer term, I’m assuming, but also at high dosages, how safe is it to do high dosages for a long period of time?

Kasia (40:54.474)

Thank

Kasia (41:05.352)

E-Cosy.

Kasia (41:09.706)

So this is where, so I had to disclose these high dosages in my book. It was the hardest thing to do because I don’t want people to get hurt. But I always repeated in the book, please work with a clinical nutritionist because they know this up-close is the best. Better than functional doctor, that’s what they do. So they will discern, they know your story, they will make it safe, work together, don’t do it on your own. So how long I would say like,

People that I work with, they’re so severely impaired. I put like a blanket statement so they can wrap their head around it for 10 months. But it doesn’t have to be. It depends. It depends on all these things that I have in the bucket. Is it just EBV? Are there other things? How is the environment? Do they need extra protection because they have the smart meter and they can’t remove it or whatever that is?

It really depends on the presentation too. And initially when people get really better with the supplements, they want to run, they want to jog, they want to overdo it, they want to the kitchen and then they tank the next day because they still have oxidative stress. They’re not ready, they’re not out of the woods. So if our listeners are in that place, don’t get discouraged that you tank afterwards.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (42:23.062)

Yes.

Kasia (42:34.922)

This is a healing process, so you just don’t want to overdo it. Keep building yourself up. So those dips will be slower and smaller and shorter and eventually you’ll be able to run. But now maybe start walking. Maybe don’t run yet. I think exercise is a good indication of how stable you are. So you just have to pace yourself. If people have been, you know, if EBV has been driving their body for, you know, 40 years,

Give yourself the benefit of let’s say 10 months. Just commit to working with the supplements and the diet and the lifestyle. Give yourself space. Don’t push through and don’t try to overachieve and be perfect because it’s not perfection. It’s just progress, baby steps. Yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (43:25.324)

Yeah, yeah. That’s so great for people to understand and know that in some situations it is longer term. And, again, you’re doing this and someone’s overseeing, you’re not just taking these super high doses, you’re doing them in the right balance and kind of combining them in that way for longer, because I think that’s also where the issue can come. Someone can do it for three, four weeks, feel better, they stop. And then it kind of goes back and then they wonder why is my early antigen back up, right? Or why am I feeling worse?

Kasia (43:30.228)

Yeah.

Kasia (43:39.167)

Yes.

Kasia (43:42.889)

Yep.

Kasia (43:46.782)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kasia (43:53.322)

Yes, yes, and that’s a problem because you have a yo-yo and you really don’t understand what’s happening. And it’s, you know, we got to respect this virus more and respect the body and the limitations that the body has when it’s really insulted with the virus. So give yourself more space and more time. And I feel that EBV really forces people to look in the mirror and say, where’s my North Star? What happened to my life?

pretty much any person with chronic EPD, if they know they have it, they’ll pinpoint a time in their life when there was trauma and there was tragedy and there was loss and there was huge stress, overbearing. And then after that, it just never went back to normal. Their baseline changed, so they’ve been struggling. And I think it’s really a tough teacher because if you don’t address like what else is…

Hitting me? Why? Think about the virus as just a computer virus. It’s not even alive. It just responds to stimuli. That’s all. So you can turn it on, but what turns it on? It doesn’t have emotions. It just responds to what’s there. One of the key triggers is stress, but another one is nutritional deficiencies. And you and I know.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (45:22.114)

Yes.

Kasia (45:23.005)

how common these darn things are.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (45:25.612)

They are. Yeah. Especially things like zinc, which you need to turn off EBV and that can literally go across generations with its zinc deficiency. yeah. Yeah.

Kasia (45:34.485)

interesting. Yeah, I mean, you know, the reason why we are nutritionists is because up to 80 % of chronic illness is caused by clinical, subclinical deficiencies plus toxicity. Two things. Basically.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (45:50.466)

Yeah. Two things, just two things, right? Should be easy. Just two things.

Kasia (45:57.833)

But you know if you’re stressed out, you’re urinating all your B vitamins, you’re urinating the magnesium, there goes your nutrition. Great food you eat and you just yeah you’re eating healthy food so it’s like yeah it goes a little deep doesn’t it? Yeah.

Inna Topiler CNS MS (46:04.8)

Right, right, even if you’re eating healthy food.